John Gall: Tell us about your now infamous appearance on TV in the unbuttoned down button-down.John Simons: It was purely unconscious. I often do that. I think the original influence for doing that was the old chairman of Fiat, Gianni Agnelli. I always used to note that he wore his Brooks Brothers button-downs undone. That affected me. So whether I?m guilty of copying him or taking it on board unconsciously, it certainly wasn?t contrived. He kind of informed me on that. He has this kind of casual look about him. He had quite a nice appearance. It?s a kind of irreverent attitude towards things like button-down. I don?t do them up you know, I haven?t got them done up today. If fact to be honest I can?t remember the last time I ever did them up! Although in the early days like the early to middle 50s, when falling in love with Ivy League, well that was informed by more of an Ivy League dogma so then I certainly would have done them up. I wouldn?t have left them undone then.JG: Did you want to say something about jazz and Ivy League?JS: Well certainly in those days an interest in Ivy League clothing was heavily driven by an interest in jazz, especially West Coast jazz of the 1950s. The West Coast jazz, the whole kind of be-bop revolution, was in fact a true counter culture. A young guy, hungry for information, wanting to be at the sharp end of what was happening, he?d want to part of that revolution, you know? I feel strongly that pop music is the recreational wing of a classical culture. It?s the fun side of all that. It?s the same people: heavy-lidded literature, heavy-lidded music. They?re opposite ends of the same spectrum. I?ve always been convinced of it but it?s the first time I?ve said it to you. But I feel that particularly the West Coast jazz, when it was at its most sublime in the early days, well it represented a true counter-culture. It was not indebted to the classical culture in any way. It?s very difficult to explain ? it?s a feeling. JG: How did jazz culture differ from the pop thing, apart from musically obviously?JS: Well I?ve never bought a pop record. Actually I bought ?The Kid?s Last Fight? by Frankie Laine, and my cousins liked Johnny Ray, but apart from that my pop music was jazz, not be-bop at first, it was a bit too untidy for me. I liked the Ivy Leagueness of the West Coast jazz.
JG: So you have this clear association between Ivy League and the West Coast sounds?JS: Absolutely! It was as much to the button-down as the buttons! And I?m prepared for people who are interested to question me on it. JG: Were these your own feelings or were there others who thought like this?JS: The thing with me was, which I?ve proven to this day, I saw the importance of Ivy League as an on-going art form. Now people who are involved in it sometimes move away from it and no longer feel the importance of it. You see examples of that all the time, people who you knew 25 years ago and they?re wearing grey shoes now and wouldn?t know Ivy League from Shmyvy League you know? I never forgot its importance. So in a sense I?ve never thought of it as less than a highly important factor in the evolution of the 20th century. JG: What is it intrinsically about this style that you think makes it matter so much?JS: Well I believe it?s the visual connection between jazz and Ivy League that makes it for the hipster a very hip sensation. And of course Ivy League then moved onto Jivy Ivy.JG: When was that then late 50s?JS: Yeh, late 50s early 60s. Esquire magazine and Playboy would start to introduce the sort of Ivy League that Elvis was wearing, like he?s wear kind of his rock and roll gear but he?s add an Ivy jacket with short side vents, maybe more of a bum-freezer than most Ivy League jackets. With hindsight John you would not like wearing that very much today. Lenny Bruce wore a lot of Jivy Ivy ? black, slick Ivy jacket, high buttoned, a little bit small, a little bit short. I used to see Lenny Bruce at The Establishment when he came over here. I think I even spoke to him a couple of times. JG: That term ?Jivy Ivy?: was that in the currency then?JS: Yeh it was, it was in the verbal currency. I don?t think it was much used but it was a way of kind of keeping Ivy alive before the public eagerly jettisoned it at the end of the 60s for a more hairy flarey style and a more fun-loving music. Yes it?s an interesting point this ? they eagerly jettisoned it for a less cerebral music, I think a more terrible music, but only because cerebral and terrible rhyme: that?s the only reason I think it. You?ve seen photos of friends of mine who within 12 months had changed from severe Ivy to long-haired flarey and hairy. When it changed it changed so quickly. Because I believe that the society I?ve grown up in is always up for the soft option and the soft option I think was?. you see, jazz and Ivy League had a rigorous doctrine.JS: Rules.JS: Heavily laden with rules. I mean if you wanted to be a good jazz player, unless you were hugely talented, you normally had to practice endlessly and your ideals had to be way up there in the stratosphere. And the young really they yearn to embrace the soft option and it still goes on. In England the reason I had to keep it was because it was part of my trade you know, it was part of my portfolio of ideas, although I had to embrace the 70s and 80s and I did tend to do toned down versions of the fashions of those eras. But to me it didn?t have anything to offer compared to the sublime mood of the West Coast jazz period. Well I mean you?re sitting there now wearing that stuff and enjoying every minute of it. I don?t think, well you might come in next week in Flower Power stuff you know but I somehow doubt it. My feeling is that the Ivy period wasn?t held onto very dearly. You?ve only got to go to America and speak to people about those fantastic days of those early Ivy League clothes: they virtually don?t even remember that it happened. Or they say they do but they don?t. Although of course there?ll be people there that are now yearning for it and trying to get back to it that?s for sure. I don?t know all the answers you know?. you can only kind of kick it around.
Conversations with John Simons Volume One
The first in an occasional series in which we explore the past, present and future of clothes, music and culture
JG
JS
J.Simons, 2 Russell Street, Covent Garden, London WC2B 5TD tel 0207 379 7353 fax 0207 240 4788
build your own website